Port engine sounds like itbs running on 7 cylinders

"Hi everyone. This is my first

"Hi everyone. This is my first try at this forum....I'm not a mechanic, but I think I'm a pretty good "screw turner", with "passable" analytical skills.

My 1983 Carver Riviera has twin 305/220 Crusaders. Both engines have their individual 75 gallon fuel tanks, but I can cross feed as necessary to balance the load. Both engines are original with 1200 hours on each.

Here's the problem.
After launching for the season port engine has been running very rough. Won't idle below 1000rpm. Exhaust reaks of gas, and a nice pool of what appears to be unburned (read wasted) fuel forms a 10 foot diameter slick on the surface after a mear 3-4 minute run-up.

Carb (stock Rochester) and stock distributor were rebuilt in fall of 2007, but only about 5 hours on them since,as boat sat at the dock most of 2008 due to family commitments.

Since I dock the boat "port side out", the port fuel tank is the harder one to refill,so I tend to use that tank as a reserve for most situations. Consequently the fuel in the port tank probable dates back to spring of 08, whereas starboard tank was a fresh fillup prior to last October's haulout. Stabilizer was added to both tanks at haulout.

When I started the engines this season, each was fed from their respective individual fuel tanks. At first I thought the problem was stale fuel,or water in the fuel, so after the first couple of runups, I switched to the newer fuel in the starboard tank since the starboard engine was running just fine. After the switch, the engine seemed a bit smoother , but non the less still quite rough at 1200rpm, and then complete stall at anything less than 1000 rpm.

Here's the basic stuff I've done so far:

1) I checked the filter canister on the rear of the block and yes, there was about a thimble full of water in the bottom....but I didn't think that small amount would continue to cause such continued rough running. I cleaned it and replaced it.

2) I checked all plug wires for firmness of fit at each end.

3) I removed and inspected each spark plug. Every plug had a slight coating of black carbon dust, but EVERY plug was soaked with gasoline. This suggested to me that there must be a common denominator if all cylinders were the same. Is my carburetor running too rich? Has the water in the initial startup fuel somehow screwed up my new carb?

4) I attempted to double check my timing....perhaps I knocked the distributor out of alignment while readying the boat for launch? When I hooked up my strobe, it wouldn't register on #1 cylinder like it normally should. I found this odd, so double checked that the light was ok by testing it on the good engine....it worked just fine. My strobe has an "induction type connector" that just has to encircle the plug wire rather than having to disconnect it....I tested each plug wire on the good engine , just to see if the current in each wire would set off the strobe, and each as expected did just that.

I then followed the same procedure on the sick engine and surprise.....while idling at 1200rpm, only 2 spark plug wires activated the strobe!!!! Did this mean I only have TWO cylinders Firing????????? I then proceded to individually remove the plug wires, one at a time, to see if there was any change to the idling engine. There was NO change in engine roughness when each of the 6 "dead" plug wires were removed and replaced. The only 2 that caused the engine to quit as soon as they were disconnected were the same two that activated my strobe light.

GEEEEEEZ........now it sounds like I have a electrical problem as well, if only 2 cylinders are firing????? I checked the inside of the distributor cap....some light copper discoloration on each of the pins...so I just emerypapered each one to be sure.....replaced it and started the engine again, but no change?????

Ok so this is the part where I "CRY UNCLE". Any and all help and advice would be most appreciated.

Thank you in advance
Warren - Toronto,Canada"

Whoa! Something major is amis

Whoa! Something major is amiss here.

1. Get a compression test

2. I suspect the carb is flooding badly and needs a rebuild.

3. Change the oil--with all that gas contamination the bearings are taking a beating.

Jeff

"If the carb is flooding bad,

"If the carb is flooding bad, it can get the plugs wet and effectively short them out. this will keep the timing light from flashing.

check around the carb mounting on the intake. if it is flooding bad the fuel will be weeping out of the secondary throttle shafts (on an in-line) as they'll be lower than the primaries. Shut the engine off and open the air valve and see if the secondary throttle plates are wet - another sign of flooding. If flooding exists, check your carb overhaul shop ticket to see if they changed the floats. If not, get two new ones as the other one won't be too far behind. You'll probably need two air horn gaskets, too, if you plan to do this yourself."

"From your discriptions. Firs

"From your discriptions. First, replace cap and rotor. Be careful of firing order, but check it, closely. Second, don't add good fuel to bad. The E-10 fuel can't be stored as `you suggest. Don't store with any fuel in tanks or Carb. (This is a major change in the way it's been done for 35 years) As soon as possible, add one of the new fuel additives to your freshest fuel. Burn off all fuel as soon as possible. Then buy only what you need for that days outing. Put Stabal/ in the day you buy the fuel. You can add sea-foam then also. Now rebuild both Carbs. This can be expensive if you don't do it your self. but ask around, you can take them to someone who does this all the time. Tell him your using E-10 fuel. So, to sum up. I agree you have an ign. problem. Yes the carb needs rebuilding. and Yes, the old fuel is bad. And just one more thing. Check the fuel pumps. We have had more than normal failures this year. "old fuel?""

"Fastjeff, Richard, and makoma

"Fastjeff, Richard, and makomark.......Thankyou for your prompt and detailed answers to my concerns. The carbs will be off and in for rebuild sometime over the next few days. The oil will be changed while I wait for the carbs to be returned. Fuel pumps and distributor to be inspectd as suggested.

Now the next step will be how to figure out the best way to get rid of the stale fuel from the port tank and to make sure I get it ALL.

Thanks again
Warren"

"Warren:

Could be the fuel

"Warren:

Could be the fuel pump diaphragm gone bad, too. Read the thread titled "Fuel Sucker" under Crusader."

"Just to chime in, on Makomark

"Just to chime in, on Makomarks fuel pump check. If you see any fuel in the tygon line, that clear plastic line that runs from Carb to fuel pump. The pump is bad. That could also explain several of your symptoms. not only the reg. fuel but extra leakage. It's unsafe to run eng with bad pump. DON'T......"

"I have seen some older engine

"I have seen some older engines where the fuel line from the pump to the carb is non-existant or burned, down towards the lower end and the fuel may never make it up to a visible level. Of course you likely would have a bigger problem and may even smell the fuel as well. When I took ownership of ours...while the fuel pumps were fine, BOTH tubes were melted and just hanging down. Since it is not the easiest to bend into, it may have gone un-noticed."

"Even though it isn't well

"Even though it isn't well advertised, checking those 'sight tubes' is a standard maintenance item. So is replacing them with they harden up or you can't see thru them.

Al - any idea what got hot enough to melt them?"

They were improperly routed ag

They were improperly routed against the exhaust manifold. They had burned in one of those nooks or crannies. It was when I had been checking the temps with the gun that I pulled it to trace it's origin when I found 2 pieces melted on each end and separated.

"OK!!!!!!!!UNCLE ALREADY!!!!!

"OK!!!!!!!!UNCLE ALREADY!!!!!

Hello fella's well, here's an update since by original post of June, but unfortunately "no light at the end of the tunnel yet".

In my limited spare time since the original post, I have FROGGED each of the following components between the sick PORT engine and the healthy STARBOARD. I switched one component at a time and then verified my results by trying to start each engine. IN EVERY case, the starboard (healthy) engine continued to run as NORMAL when each of the sick engine components were added. Prior to the frogging, I switched the fuel valves to ensure both engines are running on the same fresh gas of the starboard tank.

Sofar I have frogged, the carb, the complete distributor (including cap), all spark plugs, the coil, the ballast resister. I have checked and rechecked that my plug wires are correctly routed, and matched to the correct lefthand firing order. I have checked and rechecked that the distributor was reinstalled in line with the #1 cylinder at TDC.

The result is the same every time after a switch......the Starboard engine starts on first turn of the key and "runs like a top", the port engine continues to turn over with each turn of the key but REFUSES to fire at all. Both carbs are squirting the same amount of fuel into their respective throats, and that's why I discounted the fuel pump as a problem.

I almost feel now that I should be looking for some sort of missing GROUND conection or something??? but if the starter turns as normal, wouldn't that suggest otherwise???

I've run out of ideas.............any additional thoughts sure would be appreciated.

Warren"

"did you check the sight tube

"did you check the sight tube at the fuel pump? If that little plastic tube has fuel in it, the pump diaphragm is leaking and it will go up and flood the carb. With that vintage, the upper end of the sight tube should go into a hose barb which dumps it into the primary bore, right above the fuel inlet nut. The pump may still work but it will deliver fuel to the carb without any regulation.

Also, check for a nominal 9 volts at the coil + terminal with the key ON. Key switches have been known to go bad, especially with 25 years on them. Many installers also but a circuit breaker in that lead, from the key switch back to the coil.

If those items are ok, Jeff's compression check would be next on my list."

"makomark..........thanks for

"makomark..........thanks for the new tips. I forgot to mention that I performed a compression test prior to starting any of the "frogging". All cylinders came in at well over 100, on BOTH engines.

I'll check for the 9 volts at the coil on my next free day. As far as I can tell the ignition switches are original, so it's definitely worth checking.

The fuel pumps on my 220 Crusaders appear to be original since the blue paint does not appear to have been disturbed on either unit. Each fuel pump has only 2 feeds...the "inlet" flexable hose from the fuel filter canister at the rear of the block, and the "outlet" metal tube that connects to the carb. There is a 3rd nipple on each of the pumps, but it is sealed with a metal plug.

Warren"

"So, the pumps look like this:

"So, the pumps look like this:

fuel pump"">

and the carbs like this (except blue, not black):

carb"">
?

On the carb, you can see a small hose barb over the fuel inlet fitting; do you have one or is the casting still vergin there?"

"The three fittings on the pum

"The three fittings on the pump arrangement (inlet/ outlet/ ruptured diaphragm feed to the flame arrestor) began in the late '80s. Older motors had just the inlet/ outlet.

If your's is set up that way, you can legally continue using it, but if you replace the carb, I'd rig up that third line to the flame arrestor. Much safer.

Jeff"

"I'd say more mid-80's

"I'd say more mid-80's, at least for Crusaders. My 86's have it and I've seen 85's, too. Probably like most MFG setups; phased in as stock of 'old design' get consumed.

For the price of a few hose bards and some hose, I'd add it. Yes, much safer."

"My Carver is a stock 1983 mod

"My Carver is a stock 1983 model Riviera. The carbs and fuel pumps are exactly as in the above photo's. As has been suggested, it looks like the diaphram return feed feature to the carb didn't start till sometime after my production year.

I've looked through the parts section of this site and it appears that there are several criteria to consider for the correct fuel pump replacement. 1) The two nipples have to be in the same 5 o'clock and 7 o'clock, in order to line up with the existing fuel lines, and 2) It would appear that there are VARIOUS fuel flow rates available on models that are designed for my 305 cu in motor. I'm not sure where/how I go about determining the correct fuel flow requirements for my setup..........so any help in on this topic would be most appreciated.

Again.......thank you for your input.
Warren"

..."It would appear that t

..."It would appear that there are VARIOUS fuel flow rates available on models that are designed for my 305 cu in motor. "

I highly doubt that. Just two ways to conveniently hook up the line.

Jeff

"Here's a link to Andrew&#

"Here's a link to Andrew's parts listing for Crusader:

http://www.marineengine.com/parts/sierra_marine/sierra00495.htm

Looks like 3 viable small block pumps. I bet the only difference between them is the "clocking" of the inlet, outlet, and sight tube fitting.

If you want to be safe, pull one of your pumps and get the (usually) 5 digit number off the flange...that's the only 'unique identifier you'll find on those pumps."

"Followed the suggestions ment

"Followed the suggestions mentioned above on possible "fuel pump" or "coil" as source of my problem.
Checked coil wire for spark when held within 1/4 inch of ground....NO SPARK PERIOD! Checked with a meter. Coil reads 5.3 volts (should be 12)on the + side, and .26volts (should be 12) on the - side. Backtracked the wire from the coil+ side back to the solenoid and took a reading= 5.4 volts!!!
While doing these tests (ignition key on) the coil and ballast resistor got extremely HOT!!!

Now it would appear problem is solenoid, or ignition switch????? It's easy to frog the ignition switches, but not sure how to go about replacing a solenoid. My solenoids appear to just be screwed with two screws, to a bracket on the top of my starter. would it be a simple switch or are the solenoids wired within the starter motor as well? Are solenoids available to be purchased as a seperate unit or does one have to buy a combined unit of starter AND solenoid??

Thanks
Warren"

"You need to follow the path o

"You need to follow the path of electricity back from the + terminal on the coil to the ignition switch, checking voltage all the way. You'll eventually find a spot where the voltage jumps up to 12 volts, and there will be where the trouble is. Just blindly changing parts will waste time and money. Your voltmeter is your best tool here.

Jeff"

"Jeff, I took your advice and

"Jeff, I took your advice and followed the wiring with a multi meter. Found both terminals at the ballast resistor corroded. Cleaned same and the engine wanted to fire immediately. That was when I realized I had backfiring coming up through the carb.

I rechecked my spark plug wiring for the correct firing order...all ok. Then rechecked the distributor, and realized that I had installed it 180 degrees out of sinc.

Once the distributor was realigned correctly, the engine fired on the second turn of the key. I just let it run long enough to set the timing. It was earlier pointed out that a lot of the unburned gas I was sending through the engine was probably going past the rings, and into the crank case, so I want to change the oil asap.

One thing I did notice and found ODD , was that after running only about 8-9 minutes, the coil and ballast resistor were "quite warm", actually they were almost "hot"...... Is this normal?????

I should mention that the ballast resistors on both engines are "original".

Everyone....Thanks again got your help and assistance.

Warren"

"CHeck the voltage at the &#43

"CHeck the voltage at the + terminal of the coil with the key ON and motor OFF. If it's 9 volts you're okay, even though it may feel a bit warm.

Jeff"