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meric
07-01-2006, 11:31 AM
"I have a 99' 115 HP Ficht evinrude that is having trbls. I got the diagnostic software to trbl shoot things. Have the software on CD and connected to engine. Am able to get service reports. Shows hours (107), serial #, rpm's etc., about two pages worth. However, when I try to run the FFI diagnostics (step 1) I get the following message (error). " DATABASE ERROR 22 on MODEL FUNCTION." Thus I'm unable to run the FFI diagnostics.

Does anyone know what that means, or causes it?

I don't feel it is the cable b/c I was able to retrieve service reports.

It said in the "steps" to put key in "on" position. I took this to mean to the right but not running. I get the warning lights (self test) and shows battery voltage, but the engine is NOT running. Should it be running?

I did NOT install the software on the computer (not my computer), just running it off the CD. just an fyi.

Any and all help would be appreciated.

Thanks mark"

haffiman37
07-01-2006, 12:19 PM
"There may be several reasons for this mesage.
1:First of all normally it is an advantage to have it installed.
2: You may have the wrong software (cannot run 98 software on 99 model)
3: Some xp versions, not to mention anti virus/anti spy ware may block the communication.
I used windows 98 on a 'clean' desktop or a Sony Palm when I serviced those engines.
Engine does not need to run, but the ECM must be powered up (ign on)."

haffiman37
07-01-2006, 12:21 PM
PS:
Could You copy and paste and post what You got up or mail all pages directly I may try to see what You have.

meric
07-01-2006, 02:42 PM
"Morten,

Thanks for the response.

I had to search around with my friends to find an older computer that had MS-DOS and older windows. My laptop is only 6 months old and wouldn't work.

The computer has windows 95.

The Diagnostic software is version 1.42, and in the manual it states good for 2002 and older outboards.

I did get it off Ebay, so it may be junk, though it looks authentic.

With some work I may be able to copy/paste the commands. Not exactly sure if that computer even is set up for Internet (AOL, Netscape, etc.).

Did you want a copy of the service report? I can view that.

Or the FFI Diagnostics?

I just follow the four steps:

step 1 - select #1 FFI diag. off Program select menu
step 2 - press space bar, proprietary warning
step 3 - press space bar safety precautions
step 4 - press space bar general instructions (computer on, neutral, cable, on)

Then I get the error message. This is it word for word:

Database error 22 in model function

press any key to exit.

That is it.

I will try installing the software, let me know what else I can do to help you, if you want the service report info.

Thanks again Morten.


mark"

haffiman37
07-01-2006, 09:33 PM
"If it is a copy, there is a problem if it has not been copied correct!
However we may not need it if You describe the problems with the engine."

meric
07-02-2006, 11:05 PM
"Morten,

Some info.

When I pulled the service report it did show intermittent codes of 12, 14, 37. Still can't run FFI diagnostics. The motor only has 107 hrs. Also noticed in the service report that when looking at the injectors three out of four say replace. One states replaced. If that helps you.

The trbl:

At approx. 3000 rpm under load it starts running horrible and the rpm's drop quickly. Sometimes it will die, sometimes not. When in neutral or on the trailer I have no trbl getting to and past 3000 rpms. It only occurs under load.

Drained 90% of the gas out and put new gas in, and two new fuel filters. No help.

thanks
mark"

haffiman37
07-02-2006, 11:16 PM
I think You got a fuel problem. Hook a pressure tester to the niple at the fuel rails and do a pressure test under load.

meric
07-12-2006, 11:32 PM
"Morten,

I decided that it was more important to be fishing than trying to save money by working on my own boat. So I brought it to a marine mechanic that came highly recommended to me from a fellow boat owner. I was just curious as to your thoughts before giving him the go ahead. He did NOT have the diagnostic software but came to the conclusion that the reeds for one of the cylinder seem to be the prbl. He stated that he was getting tons of unburnt fuel out of one cylinders. He checked for a good spark , which it had. All the plugs are very fuel fouled. Not just that one. Anyway, my question to you is this common problem? Do reeds fail that quickly. The engine only has 107 hours on it. My concern was he goes in after the reeds and finds they are just fine. I would be out 400-500 dollars and still no better off.

I was thinking more along the lines of a really plugged fuel injector. Instead of spraying in a nice fine mist of gas that can ignite, it is streaming in a river which will not ignite. But I'm not a mechanic and he is.

I made the mistake of assuming he had the diagnostic software. Not sure if this a critical tool in trouble shooting or not. It seems to me that it would be, but I once had a car mechanic who was better than any computer.

Thanks again greatly
mark"

haffiman37
07-13-2006, 12:28 AM
"I have never changed any reeds on that engine! Reeds normally goes from over rev or crank case combustion. 'Tons of unburned fuel' may more indicate a bad cylinder/piston as You obviously have bothe fuel and spark! Do a compresson test before You let the mechanic start any expencive operation! There is a 'manual' way of testing the electric operation of the injectors, and that is by using a timing light on the cable. If You have a timing light with rev counter function that is the best. It is even possible to manually operate the injector by pulsing it with 12 volts and use a torch light watching the spray through the spark plug hole.Remember You would need ign on and fuel pressure up to do this.
I am not convinced You got the right mechanic for this engine, but you may give him a 'no cure - no pay!' option."

meric
07-13-2006, 03:14 AM
"Morten,

I'm going to cut my losses now and take it to a certified Evinrude mechanic. They have a 4 day wait so I have a few days to tbl shoot on my own still. I will do a compression test on the cylinders once they have warmed up. As you recommended earlier I will also do a fuel compression test on the rail under load. If the boat was running fine I would take it out by myself, but under the current circumstances it is difficult to launch myself and do everything alone. So my question is, would having the motor in gear in a 50 gallon drum really be considered under load? Or can I leave it attached to the trailer and back it into the water and run it in gear? I have bugged my main fishing buddy enough to help me, and was hoping to not call him again for assistance.

thanks
mark"

haffiman37
07-13-2006, 04:13 AM
"Under load in general means WOT in gear. A barrel of water or boat on the trailer with normal propeller and WOT might cause a note in Ripleys 'believe it or not". For the time being I feel the comp test is number one, and the spray check of the injectors You do without engine running."

haffiman37
07-13-2006, 04:21 AM
"PS:
Can You ask the dealer to make a printout of the test, or have a copy on disk and either post it here or mail it to me?
If he does not know how to do it or do not have disk station in his lap top, bring a USB storage or similar to him and just copy the file. If You want to open and read it use 'Notepad'.
Another question concerning Your software: Did You get one for Palm instead of Lap top/PC?"

meric
07-13-2006, 06:39 PM
"Morten,

The diagnostic software I got came from ebay. It is a copy, not original. I got a CD for a desktop computer, plus user manual and cable. I'm going to try to install it in the next day or so, with the help of my friend who owns the computer. I didn't want to erase everything on it if I make some mistake.

I did a compression test. Used a mac tools CT-100 compression tester. Ran the boat for 9 minutes. Immediately removed all spark plug caps (only caps). Put fitting in each head (after removing that plug) and turned over the ignition several times. Ones I had finished all 4 heads, I started back at the 1st plug again. Thus the two #'s. I am guessing the lower number is b/c the motor had started cooling down. The results are in order that I tested.

The results:

port
- top 135 / 115
- bottom 120 / 105

starboard
- top 125 /112
- bottom 110 / 105

I have not tried looking at the fuel injectors yet w/ the timing gun as you suggested. Will try that next.

The mechanic that I'm no longer using came to the conclussion that the trbl was starboard / top reed cage b/c he thought he could hear something. I didn't notice any unusal noises.

I have about 4 days before it heads into a evinrude certified mechanic, maybe with your help I can get it fixed 1st. If I can't I will get the error code report for you.
thank you
mark"

meric
07-13-2006, 09:50 PM
"morten,

A bit more info. While the engine was warming up to do the compression test I was snooping around looking for any loose wires, etc. What I found was that when I was touching the starboard top plug wire I was getting a little shock. Not the full thing. I have done that as a kid and know what that feels like. But I could definitely feel a shock coming from it. The wires were a little wet and I know water is a great conductor. Not sure were the electricity was coming from, but I'm guessing it isn't good. I checked that plug wire for any cracks or tears, didn't see any. Any suggestions?

mark"

haffiman37
07-13-2006, 11:01 PM
It might be from a defective plug building the voltage to high in the cable. What plugs are You running?

meric
07-13-2006, 11:17 PM
"Morten,

Champian 7712 .28 gap, indexed them.

what did you thing of the compression #'s.
Good, bad ?

mark"

haffiman37
07-13-2006, 11:58 PM
"This page is haveing quite some problems showing threads. I just wrote a long one as reply to Your comp test, no it is gone!
I'll try again.
The comp test is at the moment 'good news'.
I am getting more into my first thoughts about the fuel delivery problem.
Theese engines are in fact 4 separate 1 cylinder engines stacked on top of each other, just with a few common systems. To make an engine fail 'all over' like Yours, it must be one of the common items, and in this case I belive it to be fuel delivery/pressure at the injectors.
Problems that may cause this:
1: Anti siphon valve at tank top.
2:Blockage/air leaks in hose/filter/primer bulb between tank and engine
3:Engine fuel filter
4: Fuel lift pumps at engine.
5:Electric pressure pump in vapour chamber
6:Vapor lock in chamber caused by fuel return and system not venting out the vapors.

This calls again for the fuel pressure test mentioned earlier, but has to be done not only at idle but evenat load and rpm's where engine starts acting bad.
There might off course be some electronic problems, but difficult to get without the diagnostic working.
If posiible do the pressure test, and if 'bad' result You may have to take a closer look at the electric pump/vapor chamber system."

meric
07-14-2006, 12:48 AM
"Morten,

I will try to get on the water and do the compression test on the fuel rail tomorrow? I believe idle thru about 2500 rpms will be okay to get, but the boat really cuts out at 3000 and usually dies. Regardless, I will get all data for you. I got this boat as a project boat. No floor. I ended up doing a ton of fiberglass work to get it back to new, but maybe all the dust/glass/etc clogged things. I remember seeing the fuel filler hose from the bow area going into the front of the tank (plastic tank). Near the back of the tank (stern area) was a small hose that came out of the top of the tank. I'm think some form of pump. I believe three wires, Red, black, green. Right there was a valve that you could turn to stop the fuel supply. Is that the anti siphon valve you mention in #1? or is it actually in the tank. That hose continues to the stern area were in the starboard livewell/storage I have the 1st fuel filter, primer bulb and the oil storage tank/pump. I did replace that filter and the primer bulb. After the primer bulb it goes to the engine where again it meets another filter. Which I have replaced twice. I'm guessing, but could be wrong, this is the engine fuel filter in #3? How can I check for leaks in the line (#2) ? I'm guessing a low pressure on the fuel compression test might indicate a blockage. Is there another way to check for a blockage?

#4 thru 6, The fuel lift pumps at engine, and electronic engine pump. I think I will be able to find them by looking in the engine manual.

There is a possibility although slim but worth mentioning of a blockage. I did completely remove the tank to get all the debris out. Often when working on bike engines when I pull hoses (radiator, gas, etc) I put a rolled up paper towel in them to keep debris from entering. I can't remember if I did this or not on the boat, but there is a possibility that I did and forgot to remove it. I would only give it a 1-2% chance. But it does exist. You can say it. I won't care. STUPID.....
WHAT WERE YOU THINKING. In the 25 plus years of working on bike engines I have never forgotten, so this would be a 1st.

My thought would be to remove fuel line at tank, remove both fuel filter, primer bulb and remove fuel line at engine. Using compressed air to blow things clear.

When you stop laughing or cursing I would appreciate the advice.

thanks
mark"

haffiman37
07-14-2006, 03:06 AM
"Tank and fuel system:
1 big (2"?) filling hose - goes straight up to deck/side deck.
1 vent hose (3/4"?)- from tank top and flat to even riseing up to ventilator through side with a screen. The hose should do an inverted 'waterlock' before going to the vent fitting, preventing water from going down in the tank. The hose must NOT go below tank top or in other way be filled with fuel creating a water lock making fuel pumping diffcult. If difficulties in filling the tank, flush back of fuel, wrong routing of the vent hose is normally the problem.
Fuel line - 3/8" minimum! from bottom of tanka=tube. On top of tube anti siphon valve= spingloaded valve to prevent tank to be siphoned if leakage anywhere in the fuel line BELOW tank top between tank and engine.If mounted, take it out and check the ball is not stuck and/or fuel is not restricted!
After anti siphon valve sometimes a manual shut off valve.
Tank instrument sending unit: Normally 3 wires, pos, neg and send.
Primer bulb= 3/8"
Fuel filter/water separator = 3/8"
Engine fuel lift pump
Eng fuel filter
Vapor chamber with el-pressure pump
Injectors
Fuel return to vapor chamber.

I used to test the fuel system by using an electric lift pump, same as on GM V8 with a clear plastic tube between fuel line and pump intake. On Your engine You need a capacity equal min 60 liter/hour and NO air bubles in the plastic tube! Less capacity or air bubles in the plastic means touble! Remember to properly ground pump and tank and reservoir to avoid static electricity ans sparks!
Comressed air backwords is not my favourite! If You want to test for leaks, turn the primerbulb the other way! There is no pressure in the line normally, only the 'weight' of the fuel.
As for engine fuel pressure, You have the test valve at the fuel rails at he back. Just hook the manometer straight on."

meric
07-14-2006, 07:08 PM
"morten,

More info. Just got off the water. Did a compression test on the fuel rail. Had the help of a friend so I chose to do that before chasing the above issues in fuel line/valves, etc. Which I can do by myself.

At idle in gear about 22 PSI, maybe about 20-21 at head way speed. But as I try to throttle her up the pressure goes down until it bottomed out on the meter at 5 PSI (lowwest # on meter). This is about 3000 RPM were it just really cuts out and dies. Basically, the faster I try to go , the less pressure I have.

I checked the primer bulb several times. NEVER rock hard while running the boat. Always soft. I can't pump it hard either while running. No trbl when motor is off pumping it hard.


I did blow all the lines clear w/compressed air. checked filter. No sign of blockage (paper towel).


Just wanted to update you.

Thanks for everything
mark"

meric
07-14-2006, 07:44 PM
"morten,

my 3/8 fuel line from the tank to the engine comes from the top of the tank. Your previous note said bottom. I have no hoses from the bottom. Where is comes out I do have a anti-siphon valve, looks clear, plus blew it out w/ compressed air. At that point I also have the fuel petcock. It appeared to be working properly. I believe just to the left in my tank instr. sending unit. Three wires. Two green on same contact. One goes to rear of boat , one goes forward toward center console. Plus I have on red wire which also goes forward toward the bow/console.

I'm starting to question my fuel lift pump. The manual doesn't show any way of testing that. Do you know of any? maybe w/ multimeter? pressure tester?

thru the fuel filter which I have changed twice (no sign of water or debris).

The to the vapor separator / fuel pump. Again no info in manual on how to test. Any recommendations?



Is this the only way of test the fuel lifter?
" I used to test the fuel system by using an electric lift pump, same as on GM V8 with a clear plastic tube between fuel line and pump intake. On Your engine You need a capacity equal min 60 liter/hour and NO air bubles in the plastic tube! "


thanks
mark"

haffiman37
07-14-2006, 09:06 PM
"Fuel lift pump -connect a T into the line etween the lift pump and vapor chamber/electric fuel pump and use the same manometer as on the electric fuel pressure pump.
As for the fuelsystem leak and capacity check - I just described how I did it in my workshop. You may use just a clear plastic hose, one that does not get soft from fuel, and connect just before the lift pump. If too much vacum/restriction the primer bulb sometimes get flattened."

haffiman37
07-14-2006, 09:19 PM
"Just picked up Your first pos: Seems I was right about the fuel pressure. Try test the lift pump as mentioned above, if ok (probably is), take apart, clean filter in el-pump, check for leaks etc the vapor chamber/el-pump!"

meric
07-18-2006, 01:03 AM
"Morten,

Thank you. Thank you, Thank you.

I took a look at the fuel pump, pretty well plugged up. I decided to just replace the unit. Might have been able to clean things up, but just felt better about replacing the unit. Boat ran like a champ. Thanks so much. Good thing I didn't replace the reed block at a cost of 400-500 dollars.

My boat is running well, and I would like to keep it that way. I am using carbon guard in the fuel to help keep the carbon build-up to a minimum. Do you recommend I do anything to help the life of the engine.

Thanks again so much.
I really appreciate your patience and help.

mark"

haffiman37
07-18-2006, 01:31 AM
"Thanks for the feed back, allways a pleasure if things works out a positive way. Which of the fuelpumps was clogged up? Have a feeling that engine has had a history of water in the fuel. The notes earlier about the injectors haveing been changed and clogged fuel pump may indicate that.
As for Carbon Guard, ok but do not use too much of it. Try to run on XD 50 oil, then You may not need the Carbon Guard. To keep it running: Watch out for corrosion on ground connectors/cables. The biggest enemy for the electronics!"

meric
07-24-2006, 01:54 AM
"Morten,

The 1st two times I took my boat out after replacing the fuel pump I was on the water for about an 1/2 hour, usually up around 3500-4000 rpms most of the time w/o any trbls. I went out this weekend and due to thick fog spend most of my time just above headway speed. It seemed to run okay, but after prbly an hour it died. I checked the fuel bulb and it was soft as could be. I pumped it up rock hard and it started right up and seemed to run okay for the rest of the time. Every once and a while I would check it, a little soft, so I would pump it back a squeeze or two. To prevent it getting really soft and dying again. I guess I could run a clear hose just before lift pump to see if I see any bubbles for possble air leak.

Does this mean I should try to do the test for the fuel lift pump? w/ the t in between the lift pump and the vapor separtor/elec fuel pump?

Or is there something else I should be chasing.

Thanks
mark"

haffiman37
07-24-2006, 07:27 AM
"I am still not quite sure about which pump You replaced, but it sound like it sucks air from somewhere. try the clear hose before the lift pum, but make a loop, then it is easier to see the bubbles on top of the loope. Note that it may even be caused by a defective primerbulb valve, Try letting the outgoing side of the bulb be vertical and up."

meric
07-25-2006, 01:48 AM
"morten,

I changed the pump the mounts on the back of the motor. It is right between the heads/injectors. It is dead center on the back. It is an electric fuel pump made by Carter. The parts book called it vapor separator/fuel pump.

Does the fuel primer bulb have to be a certain distance from the fuel filter? The fuel hose leaves my tank and goes to a starboard side rear storage compartment. In that compartment I have the oil tank/lines/etc and also 1st fuel filter. Once the gas has gone thru the filter it goes into a tube that is prbly only 4 inches long before hitting the primer bulb. Then a longer hoses goes into and thru the transom to the motor itself. Due to the lack of space in that compartment I think they went with the 4 inch long hose. It is parallel to the ground. Unless I get a longer section and try to loop it around in circle I will never get the primer bulb to be vertical. It is a brand new bulb, but I guess it could be defective.

I will try the clear tube test in a day or so, and maybe throw on a new primer bulb since they are pretty cheap.

Thanks for everything
mark"

haffiman37
07-25-2006, 08:21 AM
"To 'vacum test the fuel line, try to take it off the tank top/anti siphon valve and plug it! Then use a 'vacum' pump connected to the other end. As\vacum pump You may just use a cheap oul suction pump or similar. Pump vacum until the primer bulb gets completely flat - and it shoul stay flat! If not, air leak somewhere.
Test even the connector at the tank top and the puel pipe going to the bottom of the tank, the leakagemay be there as well. I am somewhat 'happy' to hear that the Carter pump was the problem, I know they hate water! Note that the fuel lift pump in front may not be changed with something else unless You make a possibility for the oil from the oil injector to be mixed into the system. The injectors needs 0,25% oil mix for lubrication!"

meric
08-22-2006, 08:44 PM
"morten,

I used a vacuum pump to test the line. I disconnected it at the tank (at anti siphon valve) plugged that end. Then I disconnected the line right were it connects to the metal elbow as it enter the engine cowl. I put 15 psi of draw on the line. After 10 mins it only dropped to 14.5 psi, which I took for possible leakage were I plugged line at tank, or leakage were I connected the vacuum pump. NOT any leakage in the line. I didn't think .5 PSI was bad over 10 mins, might even have been the vacuum unit itself. I did put a brand new anti siphon valve on. Used Teflon tape on end that screws in gas tank. Not sure how to test the tube into tank and anti-siphon valve? By using the vacuum pump I draw gas out of tank. The only other section I did not test is a really short piece of fuel line that goes from metal elbow at engine cowl to the bottom of fuel lift pump. This short hose has a "T" on it which appears to go to the oil pump, but I could be wrong.Was getting dark, and hard to follow/see.

Any suggestions on how to test anti-siphon valve and tube into tank. Still getting air into line somewhere b/c primer bulb goes soft pretty fast. Should I try to test the short line inside engine compartment?

Thanks for everything morten.

mark"

haffiman37
08-22-2006, 09:26 PM
"Try to hook a clear plastic hose close to the 'connector at the engine' and make a loope. That way You should be able to see an air buble building, if air and not just a weak lift pump. As for the tank, there are some different systems. Some has a solid tube going from top to bottom, some has a 'loose, tube that is pressed down by a niple on top. If the niple does not press properly on the tube You will have an air leak. Just take the tube out and check.
I am slightly limmited in my net access at the moment, changing my 'setup', but will hopefully be back in 'normal' in a day or two! Just opening a business centre in the condo I am living and waiting for new lines to be installed."

meric
08-23-2006, 02:04 AM
"I haven't done the clear hose test yet, maybe tomorrow. Is it safe to assume that if no air bubbles / pocket that the lift pump is weak ? I haven't price lift pump yet, any way to test? any way to make them work better. Do they have a filter that might be clogged (aside from the large gas filter that attaches to it).

my anti-siphon valve screws into a metal fitting at the top of my tank. The anti-siphon valve can come out easy, but the metal part attached to my tank is pretty solid, and doesn't want to move easy. I was worried about putting to much forse on it and damaging the plastic tank. That metal unit seems very solid. I'm not sure what attaches to it inside the tank. If rubber hose or metal tube to bottom of tank. Should I be concerned with tank connection if no air bubbles / pocket in clear hose test?

thanks again
mark

I know you are having limited net access, so no rush."

haffiman37
08-23-2006, 09:48 AM
"There are normal ways and 'naughty' ways of performing different tests. To test the pump suction, the naughty one is:
Pump up fuel pressure with the bulb, detach the hose from the tank and block it, then start the engine. The bulb shall go flat!If so, ok!!!
As for the fuel tank, I anm not quite sure what kind of connector/niple You have, but normally the big nut is part of the tank and the nipple may be screwed out. Post a pic if possible and I may be able to tell. If You test the pump as mentioned above You may put the plastic hose between the tank and fuel hose, just to test the tank tube."

meric
08-28-2006, 11:33 PM
"morten,

How quickly should the fuel bulb go flat in above test of fuel lift pump? Will try to post a pic of tank shortly. I did run a peice of clear hose directly from my tank to the elbow going into my engine cowl. I kept it short as possible and made one loop to collect any air. I added the primer bulb to the middle of the set-up. I started out with a hard primer buld but after some run time it got soft on me. NO air was in the clear hose loop, or anywhere for that fact. Does that indicate a bad fuel lift pump, or could it still be a prblm w/ the tube into my tank?

thanks again
mark"

haffiman37
08-29-2006, 12:40 AM
"No air is in a way a good sign, bad in another as it may indicate a bad lift pump. As the old electric pressure pump was in a bad state and there seems to be some indications that the injectors have been changed I suspect the whole fuel system has been filled with water at some time. I would not be to surpriced if there are damages inside the lift pump on the valve seats which means a new pump and not only a rebuild. The bulb should go flat rather quick if running full speed, may take quite some time, and perhaps not at idling. You probably have to run above the rpm where the problem starts. If the bulb just gets 'soft' there is a fuel pump problem, if it gets 'flat' a restriction problem before the bulb. The 'no air' indicates at least that the tank tube is not leaking anywhere."