OMC 43L Cobra IO Four Winns Horizon 200 caTHUNK when key is turned

"Hi,

Four Winns Horizon 200

"Hi,

Four Winns Horizon 200
OMC 4.3L Cobra I/O

Hasn't been started in 2-3 years but was running when they put it in storage, and was stored properly according
to a trusted and reliable source.

When you turn the ignition key, you hear a single "caCHUNK!" and that's it. No starting action after that.

The battery is brand new and proper power. Terminals are cleaned.

I bought the Clymer's manual but it doesn't show how to take out the starter, only "remove the mounting bolts", and
I have no idea where they are. (It's tight in there).

Is there something easy I can test before dropping out the starter? (heard someone talking about crossing a screwdriver
across the big terminals on the solendoid that is on top of the starter motor? Should I do this?

Also, if you think I should pull the starter, any idea where those bolts are and how many?

Can the starter be pulled if without hoisting the engine out of the boat?

Thanks very much for any help you guys can give. I tried to get the boat in the water last year and was basically at the same
spot. It's my first power boat.

Thanks,
Doug"

"The starter shaft/Bendix is p

"The starter shaft/Bendix is probably rusted in place. You need to disconnect the + battery cable (both if you want), then disconnect the cables and wires from the starter. There are two bolts and if you have a small mirror, you can put a flashlight or trouble light in the bilge to see them. IIRC, they are 9/16" bolts. Not easy to get it out (the starter is ~10 lb) so you might want to put some towels below it in case it falls to the hull.

If the bilge has has enough water in it to go above the starter, that's what caused this problem. Condensation is also a possibility. 2-3 years without being started is a long time. Annual starter service includes lubricating the Bendix and shaft. It's a PITA, but it keeps replacement from being necessary.

Re: the screwdriver across the terminals- with a frozen starter, you will be arc welding your screwdriver to the terminals. Don't do it! If there is anything that's highly flammable in the area, you're going to have a problem. Better to remove it and have it checked out fully. You can get a rebuilt MARINE ONLY starter for a decent price. Notice that I said marine- this type produces no sparks, (Coast Guard regulations)."

"Jim,

Thanks. Are the bolts

"Jim,

Thanks. Are the bolts pointing from the bottom of the boat to the top (screwing in towards the top of the boat), located in the back of the starter? I thought I did feel two of those.

Is the only way to get the shaft/Bendix freed to take it in/replace the starter?

And when you say take the cables off the starter, do you mean the cables attached to the solendoid that is on top of the starter? (just don't want to disconnect anything that doesn't need it, I might break more

Thanks for the help!
Doug"

"Yup, those are the two that n

"Yup, those are the two that need to be removed.

Also, yes to #2. It needs to come out and rather than spend the time and $ to do a temporary fix, it's better to do it once and be done.

First, remove the battery cables, then you'll have a large battery cable and a yellow/red wire going to the solenoid. If needed, you can mark the wires and take photos if you have a digital camera."

"Ok great. Thanks.

While w

"Ok great. Thanks.

While we're on the solendoid, regarding the red battery cable that goes to one of the bigger posts on the solendoid... on that same post is another similar diameter wire on it as well. I didn't see that one on the diagrams in the Clymer manual. It appears to lead back into the engine. Any ideas what that cable is, or could it be in the wrong spot? (I didn't put it there).

Many thanks,
Doug"

It probably goes to a circuit

It probably goes to a circuit breaker and then it's on to the dash where it powers all of the rest of the boat's electronics.

"Hi Jim,

Tomorrow I'm g

"Hi Jim,

Tomorrow I'm going to try to pull out the starter as you suggest. Before I do, what are the odds that the starter is fine and it's trying to spin but the part on the engine it connects to or something down the line from that is seized up?

(I can turn over the engine by hand with a wrench on the bolt on the front (on the flywheel I think)) it doesn't turn easily but it turns. Actually with the plugs in, it turns like a turn or two clockwise then gets hard or impossible to turn, and you can turn it back the other way about the same distance from center then it gets hard over there also.

Thanks for your patience, I'm just hoping to not break anything that's not already broken.

Whatever you suggest I'll do tomorrow hell or high water.

Thanks,
Doug"

"When it gets hard to crank ma

"When it gets hard to crank manually, it's because you're cranking against the compression. If it turns, the starter is the problem.

"Whatever you suggest I'll do tomorrow hell or high water."

OK, send me $50,000"

"Jim,

You are the man. Afte

"Jim,

You are the man. After replacing the starter with a new one it started to turn the engine over right away. Thanks very much for the help it was dead on.

Now the engine is cranking but it's not starting up yet. I haven't read that part of the engine manual so I won't bore you with questions, but if you have any suggestions on what to check next I'll be all ears.

It's got new gas in it, high octane. And I put new plugs in last October after fogging the cylinders.. I gave it two really quick 1 second shots of starter fluid into the carb, before trying to start it, but wasn't sure how much to put in and avoid blowing my face off. It seemed to cough once like it was going to start, just a little. I tried starting it about 12 times maybe.

Thanks again,
Doug"

"See the last line above.

"See the last line above.

If it cranks and seems to catch but won't stay running, pull the safety switch out more or push it in more, edpending on the style of switch. If that gets it to run, you need a new one. A friend just bought a used Glastron and when I tried to start it, it popped over and quit, so I pulled the switch out farther and is ran.

If that doesn't do it, check for voltage at the coil + terminal. If you have 12 Vdc there and it still doesn't run, try a replacement coil wire. Otherwise, check for spark with a timing light on all cylinders. If you suspect the wires, replace them. Sitting for 2-3 years doesn't so them any good."

"Jim,

I wish I had the 50K

"Jim,

I wish I had the 50K to give you because you've been a huge help. Getting that thing just turning over was a big highlight for me.

Safety switch? Is that the one on the dash board? Or something in the engine?

Thanks for the tips, will check it all out, have some reading to do.

Doug"

If there's a lanyard going

If there's a lanyard going to a switch on/near the throttle. that's the safety switch. I don't know the year your boat was made but all recent boats are supposed to have one. It's either pulled out by the clip on the end or is pressed inward. Both kinds can go bad.

"Jim,

I was just out at the

"Jim,

I was just out at the boat, going to look at it tomorrow morning, but wanted to mention that when the throttle is pushed forward, two streams of gas get pumped into the carb barrels. Do those gas streams sort of eliminate any show-stopping problems in the fuel system (at least to get it to start)?

I'm going to check for spark, the coil, pushing in the safety switch (there's one on the dashboard and it does look shakey) etc as you mentioned, tomorrow.

Would buying a timing light and a torgue wrench be a good idea since I'll be working on the motor myself?

Do the earmuffs need to be on the lower unit and water running if you're just trying to start the motor, and plan to stop it and go turn the water on the moment it starts actually running?

Also does the lower unit have to be all the way in the down position for the engine to start, or can it start in all positions of the lower unit?

Thanks,
Doug"

"Jim,

When the engine is ru

"Jim,

When the engine is running, how many amperes does it draw from the battery approximately? I've been disconnecting the two main battery cables from the battery every time I'm done mucking with the boat for the day and it's sort of a pain. Can a simple battery switch like this go in-line on one of the cables? (what's the best solution for this? I'm just guessing.)

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/1949 /0/0/switch/All_2/mode%20matchallpartial/105/0

Does it matter whether the switch goes to the positive or negative terminal?

Also, you must just screw on the existing battery cable to one terminal on the switch, but then what? Do you jumper another battery cable from the other switch terminal to the battery?

Thanks,
Doug"

"You should use a two battery

"You should use a two battery switch like this

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/9153 3/0/0/battery%20switches/All_2/mode+matchallpartial/0/0"

"You can use the switch but yo

"You can use the switch but you only need to remove one cable to eliminate current draw (the negative).

If you can bypass the safety switch only for troubleshooting, it may start. I have seen quite a few go bad.

If the gas going into the carb is good gas, it should start, assuming you have spark and compression. Sears has an adjustable timing light, or you can get the kind without the dial, but it's harder to use since the dial lets you use the timing mark on the zero detent and you don't need to make a judgement call. If you get a torque wrench, get the clicker type, not a beam type- they're useless. You can get one of those at Sears, too.

Running, there shouldn't actually be any current draw, the alternator should be charging the battery. If you're recharging the battery and it's going dead anyway from sitting, you have a bad bridge rectifier in the alternator. You can check this with an ammeter or multi-meter set to amps by connecting it at the battery + and if you see about 330mA, it's the bridge.

The muff needs to be on with water running any time you're going to start it. The impeller doesn't like being spun dry. Trim it down for this- less of a mess form water flying all over."

"Thanks.

I might have a ser

"Thanks.

I might have a serious problem. I had a tarp over the whole boat and it rained last night and a depression formed and some water leaked through the tarp and got on the engine and possibly some water got in the carb. (flame arrestor was off) How bad is that? Horribly bad? What should I do for damage control if anything is possible?

Thanks,
Doug"

"Pull the plugs and crank it o

"Pull the plugs and crank it over to clear out the cylinders, then start it and get it to normal operating temperature. If water sits in the cylinders, rust will form and can create a ridge on the cylinder walls and rings. Run it ASAP."

"Jim,

I pulled all the plug

"Jim,

I pulled all the plugs and cranked it over. Water shot out of the cylinders pretty good, maybe there was 12 oz or so of water in there, maybe 24, hard to tell. I kept cranking it every 5 minutes or so, for a couple seconds at a time. Eventually the water sputtering out stopped. (If I ruined the engine, I guess it was at least cool to see the cylinders firing off in succession shooting the water vapor out)

So, I put the plugs back in and it turned over but no start, same as before the water incident.

I took one of the plug wires and plugs out of the engine and tried to see a spark at the end of the plug and couldn't see one. It's daylight so maybe that's why? I held the plug threads against the block for ground. (is that right?)

I also took the plug off the coil and put the positive lead of my voltmeter down in the coil terminal where the plug came out, and the negative lead on the engine block. Had my son try to start it but didn't get a voltage there. (I had also just before that put the positive lead in the end of the coil cable at the distributor, while starting, and no voltage)

Also, I'm pretty sure there was no voltage going to the two nut wire terminals on the outside of cap at the top of the coil; putting the leads across those two nut terminals while starting the engine didn't show any volts.

Also, I looked under the dash... the ignition switch cutoff is completely unwired, and it appears it was bypassed because there don't appear to be any dangling wires.

So I'm a lost now as to what to check. There are like 2 cables connected to each of the coils nut terminals, and they all lead into one cable assembly and go into a big connector. It looks like that connector leads into a cable bundle that leads up to the dash board.

Any thoughts on what to do next? Now I'm under even more pressure to get this thing started since I pooched it with the dumb water debacle. Should I flood the engine with gas by pushing the throttle all the way a few times to get a lot of gas in there to float any water that might be in there? (ie, is there anything I should do to stall the rust a little longer until I can figure out the ignition system problem?)

Thanks,
Doug"

"Look at the coil and test the

"Look at the coil and test the coil + post for 12Vdc. If it doesn't have this, you need to go back to where the safety switch was and make sure you have continuity from the ignition position on the ign switch to the coil +, as well as voltage when you turn the key to ON. The coil - wire goes to the distributor (points and condenser). Make sure the condenser is good (not open or shorted).

To test the condenser, remove its wire form the points, set your meter to diode or ohms and place one lead on the wire with the other on the condenser's case. If you get a continuous reading other that infinity, get a new one. If you see the display flash and bo to infinity, reverse the leads and try it that way. If it flashes again and goes to infinity, it may be OK. I would replace it- it's a cheap part. Did you say this motor has the Thunderbolt ignition? If not, it has points and they need to be checked for gap, dwell and make sure they aren't burnt.

If you have a timing light, put all of the plug wires and the coil wire back on and see if you have spark on the coil wire and then on the plug wires. If you don't, look at the distributor rotor and see if it's OK. replace the coil wire with any kind of wire just to see if this is the cause of the no spark."

"Jim,

I went back in last n

"Jim,

I went back in last night and checked, and there's no voltage on the + coil terminal.

I'm assuming, maybe mistakenly, that there are 3 positions for the ignition switch... OFF, ON (lights etc can work), and START. When the key is in the ON position, are you saying there should be voltage at the + coil? I think that's what you said, just checking.

Are there two leads from the ignition switch, one going to the starter system and one going to the ignition system? Have you ever seen an ignition switch that would turn over the engine but wouldn't fire the ignition? Ah wait, I might see what you mean in your previous message, if my assumption is correct about there being a starter lead and an ignition lead on the ignition switch, you wanted me to check to make sure the ignition lead on the switch had voltage when the key was ON (not START), and if so, then check continuity back to the coil + terminal? Is it usually just a straight shot from the ignition post on the ignition switch back to the + coil terminal, or might there be fuses in the line somewhere, etc?

Thanks for all the help and tolerating all the questions...

Doug"

"The coil needs to see 12V dur

"The coil needs to see 12V during crank and ON, otherwise it wouldn't start while cranking. Check for voltage at the ignition switch on the purple wire."

"Jim,

I traced the purple w

"Jim,

I traced the purple wire back. It did have voltage when the key was in the ON position. Didn't find any obvious opens. I re-measured the voltage at the + coil and didn't get a voltage. I was taking the positive lead and putting it on the + coil, and the negative lead and touching it to the block. On a stroke of frustration I touched the negative to the carb instead of the block and then the + coil read 12V!

So what's going on? I thought the entire block and all the metal should be ground? The carb was about the only thing that would ground that + coil voltage properly enough to read 12V. The others read zero. Touching the long metal cylinder covers(?), alternator housing, etc, and the top of the block itself didn't do anything grounding-wise (meter read zero while positive lead was still on the + coil). Isn't the whole engine supposed to be ground for the most part?

I checked in the back of the engine, it looks like the heavy negative battery cable is wired to the block properly. If the entire block is supposed to be ground, maybe I have to pull off that cable and clean it?

I should have thought of that first, but I went and pulled the coil assuming it might be defective and am going to replace it now.

Would be interested to learn about the grounding situation and what's supposed to be grounded and what's not.

Thanks,
Doug"

"It looks like the engine is g

"It looks like the engine is grounded, but I can only grab a good ground on areas where the paint on the block or the alternator housing etc is scratched off.

So the + coil does have voltage and when I pull the center wire out of the center of the distributor cap and hold it to the flame arrestor or a scratch in the paint on the block where there
is a good ground, no spark at all is coming from the wire. Does this mean the coil be replaced?

Thanks,
Doug"

Have you checked to see if the

Have you checked to see if the points are opening and closing? They absolutely have to in order for the coill to discharge and cause a spark.

"OK, there's a brand new c

"OK, there's a brand new coil in there now and still getting the same results. I hadn't checked whether the points were opening or closing. Do I just crank over the engine with the distributor cap off and watch for them to open and close?

Also, I pulled off the condenser and the points. The condenser seems OK, infinite resistance from the wire end to the case. Should I put the points and condenser back on and check for the opening and closing of the points? Or should I just replace the condenser and points and then retry?

I also drained the heck out of the new battery when I was cranking it over to purge all that water. Fortunately I had another battery charging so Murhpy didn't get me on that.

Oh, I checked out timing lights at autozone. (Will go to Sears this weekend.) They were "induction" timing lights. One had one button on it, the other had a dial, and the other super deluxe model had like 6 buttons and a digital readout ($40). Is the induction type the kind I should get? Which of those styles do you recommend? Do you just place the induction loop thing over the spark cable and it picks up the pulse by electric induction I assume? It caught me off guard because I was thinking it would be a direct connection rather than induction.

Another frustrating day but it feels like we're close.

Thanks again,
Doug"

"Get the dial light- that kind

"Get the dial light- that kind works fine. If you don't check the point gap, you're wasting your time trying to get it to start and cranking it with a weak battery will kill your starter. I don't think they've made a timing light that goes inline, in years. There's no reason to do it any way other than by induction.

I think Autozone sells the same diagnostic tools as Sears.

Put the points back in and see if the recommended gap is shown on one of the valve covers. If not, call an auto parts store or service shop and find out what it is. IIRC, the dwell is 26-34 degrees and the gap is .016"- .020" but I could be wrong. I"m pretty sure about the dwell, though."

"Jim,

I picked up the timin

"Jim,

I picked up the timing light with the dial from AutoZone, and a feeler guage and the tune up kit which has the points and condenser. Going to try and get that all back together Fri/Sat. (The guy at West Marine said "What are you doing, going through the whole motor?" lol

Do I need to get a dwell meter or can the points be set up with the feeler guage alone?

Should be interesting weekend, I really have no idea what I'm doing, hopefully I don't bust something else. This poor engine is taking a royal beating from my learning.

Doug

PS. There are 2 or three wires going to the - coil terminal. Is there anything I should be paying attention to with those? Any fuses, special quirks etc?

Thanks"

"Jim,

Great news. After pu

"Jim,

Great news. After putting a new condenser, points, rotor and coil on, the engine started up immediately and sounded great.

YOU ARE THE MAN!!!! Thanks very much Jim, couldn't have done it without your guidance.

In the tune up kit there was a little pill with what looked like grease in it. Where was that supposed to go? I wasn't sure and wiped it around a little on the bottom plate. But later after looking at the old points, I'm wondering if it was supposed to go under the swing arm of the points on the bottom plate of the points? What exactly should be lubricated, and with what type of grease during the tune up?

Thanks again Jim, you saved a boat.
Doug"

"The grease goes on the little

"The grease goes on the little wedge that rides on the distributor cam, opening and closing the points.

Great to hear you got it running. If you have the tuneup specs, look for the dwell and point gap, then make sure you set them to that spec. If the dwell isn't long enough, the spark won't be as intense as it should be and you'll have performance issues. Re-check the gap occasionally, too. As the wedge wears, the gap closes. I have seen dwell meters at Sears and other auto parts stores and they're not very expensive. I bought a multi-meter with dwelltach from MCM Electronics and I think it was $20."