1989 Crusader 454 strong until %7e3000 RPM

"I have a 1989 454/350 with ~8

"I have a 1989 454/350 with ~800 hrs, that runs perfectly from starting through the RPM range until you reach about 3000-3100 RPM. At this speed, the engine 'surges' and will go no faster. No backfiring, popping, stuttering...just surging. You can watch the tach stay stable at 3k, but just a little faster and can see the tach jump up about 100 or so rpm, then back to the 3k.

Let me explain my 'meaning' of surging. By this I mean that the engine stays strong at all speeds up to about 3000 rpm, and 'wants' to go faster. The engine does not go to 3000 rpm and 'want' to die off, then speed up.

Ok, to me it seems like fuel. I find it strange that at this particular speed an issue arises. There are no noises in the engine, it is tight, strong, no leaks, etc. I guess I am leaning toward a carburater/linkage issue? Perhaps this is just about the time when the two larger barrels are begining to open?

I intend on checking the fuel delivery system from filters, pump and finally carb. Maybe swap carb with other engine and see if the problem follows carb....I also plan on checking the plugs/wires/distributer-advance. Beyond this, does anyone have any other suggestions? I won't have another chance to get to the boat until next weekend so I thought I'd put out this post. Any help/suggestions will be much appreciated/welcomed!

I have not done compressions on this engine, but have no real reason (in my mind) to think this would be necessary at this point. Just put the boat in the water, so bottom is clean, shafts/props are clean so no lines/barnacles..etc...also fuel is from common tank, and other engine is fine.

Thanks in advance!"

"FILTER ISSUE!!
Take a spare

"FILTER ISSUE!!
Take a spare with you, I'm betting you're gonna need it. Didn't say what kind of boat, but if it's a Gibson (and probably others) check tank fill cap for cracks or a bad O ring gasket
Bob"

Thanks Bob. This boat is a Si

Thanks Bob. This boat is a Silverton 34 Sedan. I whole-heartedly agree that all filters should be replaced. I will take your advice and check the o-rings...I didn't think about that....also check the seperators as well.

Appreciate your input.

"Tom,

I am by no means an e

"Tom,

I am by no means an expert, but it sounds like the engine may have a "Power Reduction Mode" when a limit has been exceeded. In my case, if my engine overheats, it limits my rpm to 3000. This may also cause a surging situation. I am not sure if an 89 engine has the PRM, but you may want to check. It could at least point you to the right system. Best of luck"

"Tom,
I am a Marine Engineer

"Tom,
I am a Marine Engineer and I have dealt with this problem on many unrelated boats. It does not matter what boat the engine is on. Crusader has a great website with free data on all years of the engine. The problem is that over the years the engine block has stayed the same but the firing order has changed. Do not look at the page and assume that the engine layout in the book is the same as it looks in your boat you have to actually know right from left or port from starboard when your facing the pointy end. It is very difficult for me to explain in an e-mail as I live on my boat in Grenada at this time, but I will try. First of all you have to think in boating terms and I mean that a garage mechanic looks at an engine from the water pump back; a marine engine is viewed from the stern forward. What that means is when you are setting up the firing order the number 1 piston on the distributor is different. Then you have to deal with the number 1 engine and number 2 engine, 1 being port, 2 being starboard. The engine will run if an erroneous cylinder is picked as number 1 and the firing sequence is followed, but the engine performance will drastically change. Use the serial number of the engine, get onto the web site, download the exact firing order, orient yourself to the correct distributor location and run the wires accordingly. I have found so many older engines wired to new engine specs assuming that they are the same and they are not. One set of engines on a Mainship was consuming 40 gallons an hour crossing the Gulf Stream to Hope Town, with poor top speed, acceleration and combustion and rpm. When the changes were made the same trip used 10 gallons an hour less, the top speed was increased and cruising rpm decreased with greater speed. This boat ran for 4 years wire improperly wired. The owner did everything from changing the pitch in the props to replacing the carburetors and much more. Replacing the Rochester carbs is a great idea as they are not the best. Holly makes a great marine carb that replaces the existing one. I can go on, but I will stop here. I hope this helps."

"Until the advent of the moder

"Until the advent of the modern era distributorless engines (8.1 and 6.0), GM has not changed the firing order of their standard rotation engine in my lifetime and trust me, I'm old. Also, number one cylinder is number one cylinder, no matter which way you point the engine. They did, at one point, rotate the wire configuration in the cap, but that has absolutely no effect on performance. This change was made strickly for wire routing purposes. By the way, power reduction is only possible on fuel injected engines since it is achieved through the engines ECM which is part of the injection and fuel management system. How did you make out changing those filters?

P.S. There is nothing wrong with Rochester carbs. providing they are working properly.

Good luck
Rick"

"I guess you did not get the j

"I guess you did not get the jest of my comments, yes the physical firing order has stayed the same on the block, LH 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 RH 1-2-7-5-6-3-4-8, but as you said they did, at one point, rotate the wire configuration in the cap actually more than one time. On the engines that I corrected this problem on the caps were not labeled on top to indicate the rotation & cylinder numbers and the difference from left to right. As an example LH starting at 11 o’clock and going clockwise 1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2 ,but if number 8, 6 or 3 were thought to number 1 because of how the engine was viewed (front back, left right) and the firing order was followed and wired normally from that point around, the engine will still run but the performance is and has been effected. If some mechanics could think out of the box a little no matter how old they are this problem could have saved my clients thousands of dollars and head aches. Some very experience marine mechanics missed this totally and were instrumental at supplying me with data to resolve this error. I can supply testimonials if you like."

""The problem is that over

""The problem is that over the years the engine block has stayed the same but the firing order has changed" Not true.

Dwight, I get your jist. I guess I'm assuming that a compitant mechanic, and remember that experienced is not the same as compitant, knows that #1 cylinder in any GM V/8 is left bank, front cylinder and that he does not need the cap labled to be able to put the plug wires on correctly. The bottom line is that you found some engines with crossed plug wires and this would certainly explain their problem. The sad part is that these people were charged thaousands of dollars and lost many hours of pleasurable boating by mechanics who could not identify this simple problem. Trust me, I see it all the time, but checking the distributor components, including firing order, is one of the very first steps in diagnosing any performance problem with a gas engine. Sometimes people are in a hurry to look outside the box when the problem is actually right there, inside the box.

Rick"

"Thank you Rick and I agree th

"Thank you Rick and I agree that a boater should be able to rely on his mechanic to ensure that they do enjoy their boating experience, but as you said it is not always the case. I have come across this problem on at least 3 boats. I agree totally that checking the distributor components, including firing order, is one of the very first steps in diagnosing any performance problem with a gas engine. In saying that, there are some unscrupulous poorly qualified individuals out there that will milk a job just get more money out of a customer or to sell parts that are not needed. I have been in the engineering business for 32 years with my foundation being military where overtime and pay were not an issue but pride, competence and commitment were number 1. As a Marine Engineering Mech, Marine Engineering Tech in the Canadian Navy, I have since evolved to become a, Journeymen Millwright and Mechanical Engineering Technologist and a member since 1989 of The Association of Science & Engineering Technology of Alberta (CET) with a strict code of ethics. I also hold 3 patents on combustion related devices known as detonation flame arrester. It is a pleasure to know that there are good consciences, competent individuals like yourself out there. I look forward reading your bulletins and contributing when I can in the future."

"Thanks Dwight, I only wish m

"Thanks Dwight, I only wish more people represeting themselves as mechanics had your background and experience. Someday there will be a standard which will have to be met to be able to take peoples money for working on their boat. I don't just mean a license obtained by paying a fee, but an acutal certification, obtained by proving your ability. Someday...

I look forward to your future input.

Rick"

"Hi - this is a great forum -

"Hi - this is a great forum - I'm happy I found it. This thread seems to describe the problem I am having on my 1984 Carver 36 foot aft cabin with twin crusader 454s. I'm hoping that the participants in this thread can add just a little with regard to my problem.

When in operation, my stbd engine runs all the way up to 4000RPM smoothly. My port engine maxs out at about 3000RPM, but runs smoothly up to that point. I operate my boat inland on the Monongahela River and have tried for years to find a competant marine mechanic to work on this problem. So, being an amateur mechanic, I'm trying to eliminate the more obvious things.

I replaced the ignition system with Sierra Marine Igniter II electronic ignition conversion kits. I did not replace the coils, and, as per the instructions, I eliminated the ballast resistors. This conversion seems to work well, although it did not seem to have any effect on the problem - the stbd engine seems a little peppier, but port engine is about the same. I did not do this as my first attempt to fix the problem, I was planning to do this regardless.

I am hoping that one of you experienced Marine mechanics can give me sort of a checklist of things to look for before I get really desperate and bring in a marine mechanic from afar, probably at great cost!

So far, I have read that carburetor may not be fully engaging, the fuel filter may be clogged, or the plugs could be wired incorrectly at the distributor cap. I have had this boat for 10 years. It is obvious to me that the engines had been previously worked on - I believe that someone tuned it before I bought it - the coil on the stbd. engine had been changed as had both distributor caps. When I pulled the points they were very clean. Also, I notice that there are used spark plugs in one of the drawers. These engines both have less than 400 hours!

I am speculating that someone tuned up this boat prior to my buying it and the problem has been there all along.

Where can I get a diagram of how the caps should be wired?

Also, any help with a checklist of things to look for would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance!"

"P.S. I failed to see that Dw

"P.S. I failed to see that Dwight, above, gave the firing order in order to be able to check the plug/distributor wiring."

buddy of mine just purchased a

buddy of mine just purchased a chrysler 318..does anyone know the correct firing order. we suspect it to be off. model is a LM318 inboard approx mid 70's we think.. any help would be appreciated

clockwise 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. Wh

clockwise 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. What leads you to believe the wires are crossed?

thanks ...

It backfired whe

thanks ...

It backfired when trying to start and it spit out gas out of the carb....

They are so far off when i got it i figured it couldn't seem right...

Also there is no marking to as which one on the cap is #1....
ray

"Hi - It's been a while si

"Hi - It's been a while since I posted here, but I had the problem of a 1984 Crusader 454, in my Carver 1984 36' twin 454 aft cabin, losing power at around 3000 rpm. See my post above from last August.

This last fall, I finally solved the problem, but forgot to post it here - sorry. On one of the engines, the timing advance weights and springs in the distributor were completely rusted out, and the engine was not getting any timing advance at higher rpms. I first thought that I could replace the springs and weights in the distributor, but found that the weights were no longer available and the springs were surprisingly expensive. And given the rust in the distributors, I didn’t like this solution.

There were two options available to me, and, I wanted to fix both distributors even though one was working (but probably not for long). There is a Crusader upgrade kit to high energy electronic ignitions - but it is very expensive and required new plug wiring, etc. I called Mallory, and found that there is a direct electronic (non-high energy) replacement distributor where all other ignition components could still be used. So, I purchased two new electronic Mallory distributors, for $299 each, installed them and man do these engines scream smoothly and nicely now! Of course, this took a little rewiring and retiming.

A couple of other points. Don't assume that the distributors on the Crusader 454s have opposite rotations - some do, some don't. The engines, of course do have opposite rotations, but the distributors don't necessarily. On mine, the distributors for BOTH engines were the same identical part number. The guy at Mallory said that he had never seen this before. I pulled both distributors and sent digital pictures to him showing the distributor gears having the exact same cut angle. Also, before this whole debacle, I tried the Pertronix (Sierra Marine) electronic ignition upgrade - guess what - they don't fit the distributors for ALL Crusader 454s - so, make absolutely sure that if you buy one of these kits that you call their tech support with your actual distributor part number. Sierra Marine had no clue that the kit didn’t fit all 454s.

Hope this helps."